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randomnesstheloriest posted a Buzzfeed article saying that Ryanair is planning to offer low-fare transatlantic flights. They claim they'll won't be doing this for another four or five years, but we'll see. In any case this is that time in the industry again where low-fare low-service carriers try to break in to that market, what with Norwegian Air Shuttle throwing a few flights across the ocean, Air Transat doing its best to turn itself into a scheduled airline (as opposed to a mainly charter one), air berlin getting in there with a few transatlantic routes, and WestJet flying the occasional 737 from Newfoundland to Ireland and back.
Every few years, some venturesome souls make a crack at breaking into the lucrative (and thus heavily-defended) transatlantic air market. Mostly what happens is that they get some flights going and initiate a bitter and hard-fought price war with the legacy carriers. Trench warfare ensues, the newcomers get run out of business, bought out by other carriers, or end up in a niche. After the dust settles everyone decides that maybe going head-to-head with the legacy carriers who own the vast majority of landing slots isn't going to work in the present business environment, and ticket prices rise again. This has been happening at least since the time of Freddy Laker's Skytrain and PEOPLExpress, which is when I first experienced it first-hand. Sir Richard Branson actually managed to make a go of it, but now Virgin Atlantic is as established as any of the legacy carriers, and in any case (possibly not by coincidence) has decided they'll compete on service, not price.
Anyway, this time Michael O'Leary and Ryanair are considering entering the market. This is big news because Ryanair is a big airline: the largest European airline by passengers carried, and the largest international airline, again by passengers carried. It's a bus with wings, but it's a lot of buses and a lot of bus passengers. If they actually do enter this market, the price war that ensues will dwarf all the previous ones. You may not ever have to fly Ryanair to take advantage of this war, because every legacy carrier competing on a route Ryanair flies will match whatever price Ryanair charges. No matter what it takes.
I've flown Ryanair. More than once, even, and I have a few thoughts. Ryanair is the carrier everyone loves to hate, and there's good reason for that. They nickel and dime you even worse than Spirit Airlines, who are pretty much the worst in North America in that regard. They even charge you a fee to pay them by credit card. (No, you can't get around this by paying cash, although they do take debit cards.) Michael O'Leary is the guy who famously said he'd put coin-operated bathrooms on his planes if he could (he can't, and later claimed he was joking).
The thing about low-fare airlines like Ryanair is that if everything goes right, you're okay. But if something goes wrong, you're screwed. Miss the flight? Too bad, buy another ticket. (To be fair, the whole point is that their tickets are cheap, and the price of the new ticket plus the ticket for the flight you miss may still be cheaper than any alternatives.) More baggage weight than you guessed you had? Start tossing out stuff at check-in or get hit with a penalty fee. And you may find recovering your lost bag a bit of a chore. So the trick is to minimize the chance of a problem affecting your trip plans, because you should not expect them to fix any problem that arises. Service is not part of the ticket price.
After a few experiences with this breed I came up with some personal rules for low-fare, low-service carriers.
Those are five of my rules. If I've missed anything, tell me in the comments. :)
Every few years, some venturesome souls make a crack at breaking into the lucrative (and thus heavily-defended) transatlantic air market. Mostly what happens is that they get some flights going and initiate a bitter and hard-fought price war with the legacy carriers. Trench warfare ensues, the newcomers get run out of business, bought out by other carriers, or end up in a niche. After the dust settles everyone decides that maybe going head-to-head with the legacy carriers who own the vast majority of landing slots isn't going to work in the present business environment, and ticket prices rise again. This has been happening at least since the time of Freddy Laker's Skytrain and PEOPLExpress, which is when I first experienced it first-hand. Sir Richard Branson actually managed to make a go of it, but now Virgin Atlantic is as established as any of the legacy carriers, and in any case (possibly not by coincidence) has decided they'll compete on service, not price.
Anyway, this time Michael O'Leary and Ryanair are considering entering the market. This is big news because Ryanair is a big airline: the largest European airline by passengers carried, and the largest international airline, again by passengers carried. It's a bus with wings, but it's a lot of buses and a lot of bus passengers. If they actually do enter this market, the price war that ensues will dwarf all the previous ones. You may not ever have to fly Ryanair to take advantage of this war, because every legacy carrier competing on a route Ryanair flies will match whatever price Ryanair charges. No matter what it takes.
I've flown Ryanair. More than once, even, and I have a few thoughts. Ryanair is the carrier everyone loves to hate, and there's good reason for that. They nickel and dime you even worse than Spirit Airlines, who are pretty much the worst in North America in that regard. They even charge you a fee to pay them by credit card. (No, you can't get around this by paying cash, although they do take debit cards.) Michael O'Leary is the guy who famously said he'd put coin-operated bathrooms on his planes if he could (he can't, and later claimed he was joking).
The thing about low-fare airlines like Ryanair is that if everything goes right, you're okay. But if something goes wrong, you're screwed. Miss the flight? Too bad, buy another ticket. (To be fair, the whole point is that their tickets are cheap, and the price of the new ticket plus the ticket for the flight you miss may still be cheaper than any alternatives.) More baggage weight than you guessed you had? Start tossing out stuff at check-in or get hit with a penalty fee. And you may find recovering your lost bag a bit of a chore. So the trick is to minimize the chance of a problem affecting your trip plans, because you should not expect them to fix any problem that arises. Service is not part of the ticket price.
After a few experiences with this breed I came up with some personal rules for low-fare, low-service carriers.
1) If anyone else is flying the route, make sure that whatever total the low-fare airline quotes includes all the fees you'll be using: credit card fee, checked bag fee, reserved seat fee, and whatever else you'll be using. Then compare the total cost. Often, you can take advantage of the existence of a low-fare carrier's fares without ever flying on them by flying with the legacy carrier who's trying to drive the low-fare carrier out of competition on that route.All that said, I fly low-fare carriers quite a lot. I haven't ever taken Spirit myself, because there are too many alternatives with competitive prices. But in Europe and Asia, sometimes the low-fare airline really has a great price, even after all the fees and inconvenience are added in. JetStar, Tigerair, SpiceJet, AirAsia, Air Arabia, Ryanair, EasyJet, they've all been part of my itineraries and they likely will be again someday. I even have some pleasant memories of flying on some of them. But it's best to use them judiciously, eyes open about their limitations.
2) Remember to add in the cost of their dedicated shuttle bus to the cost of getting to wherever you are from the remote secondary airport they use. Ryanair tends to fly into and out of airports that are converted Cold War airbases that local governments are desperate to get flights into and out of. Thus they pay much less for landing rights, and they don't have to fight for crowded slots.
This is particularly important when you're flying to someplace like Beauvais, which is a Paris airport the way that Manchester is a Boston airport. Difference is, there are painfully few alternatives to Ryanair's shuttle at Beauvais. You could rent a car, I guess.
I can imagine Ryanair flying toProvidencePortsmouth and calling it Boston, or flying to Stewart and saying they fly to New York, for example. For Miami they could fly to Fort Lauderdale or Palm Beach. Mitchell International, here comes Ryanair! You get the idea.
3) Never try to make an immediate connection on either end of a low-fare flight. I use them for point-to-point trips, and schedule a couple of days on either end of the flight if I have to go anywhere. Usually, this is fine. If you're going from Stansted to Hahn, for example, you probably want to visit London for a couple of days before your flight. And you probably won't mind visiting Frankfurt for a day or two after. But trying to use them to do something like Edinburgh to Beauvais with a same-day connection in Dublin is rolling the dice. And connecting between two low-fare flights from two different low-fare carriers is even more fraught. JetStar from Perth to Singapore and then Singapore to Chennai on Tigerair? Good luck with that. At least if they strand you, you'll be stranded at Changi. Better just to get yourself a bed in Singapore for a couple of days and try all the tasty food.
4) The seats are small. Personally, my measure of a small seat is one where I'm not comfortable. As I'm a small person the only time I've really been in a seat that was too small for me was five hours on a second-class bus from Aranyaprathet to Bangkok. (Thai and Vietnamese non-luxury buses are sometimes built for people smaller even than me. Ever since, I've waited for the first-class bus.) But anyone not fun-sized like me should be aware that low-fare airlines pack the maximum number of passengers into the minimum amount of space. For me, that's sometimes pretty snug. You may call it something less friendly.
5) I seem to have just gotten email from flydubai with their latest deals. That reminds me of another point: even when they're not in some remote secondary airport as in point 2), low-fare airlines are often relegated to a far-off terminal away from all the "real" airlines that's not easy to get to or from. flydubai is a great example. They operate out of Terminal 2 at Dubai International.
Dubai International has three terminals: Terminal 3 is for Emirates and its friends. It's brand new and very nice. Terminal 1 is for most airlines not in a special arrangement with Emirates, and is showing its age but generally okay. Most importantly, you can walk between Terminal 1 and Terminal 3, and both of them are connected to a Dubai Metro station.
Terminal 2, not so much. Terminal 2 is basically a large shed on the other side of the runways where they stick all the low-fare carriers. Getting to and from Terminal 2 is a non-trivial operation, as it only gets bus service. So much so that sometimes it seems getting to Sharjah International, fifteen miles away, is easier than getting to the other terminals.
There are any number of other multi-terminal airports which do this to their low-fare airlines, Paris Charles de Gaulle included. Check before you fly, or end up miles from where you expected with time running out before your flight and no way to get to the other terminal except an expensive taxi.
Those are five of my rules. If I've missed anything, tell me in the comments. :)
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(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-21 01:37 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-21 04:52 am (UTC)PMI (Palma Mallorca)? Fun!
The risk of chaining two same-day itineraries is heavily dependent on how much you trust the particular airlines involved to help you should something go wrong. Low-fare airlines are unfortunately not very likely to help, though some are better than others.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-22 05:28 am (UTC)Any advice on flying from there to Boston? I'm time constrained to roughly June 27-29 for my flight date(s). The most promising thing I've seen is $932 one-way (YIKES) on Aer Lingus with a 2hr layover in Dublin. I might also see if I can scrape together enough UA miles for a saver flight if I feel like waiting/risking for those to show up, though I haven't checked out what the possible itineraries might be.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-22 03:21 pm (UTC)Anyway, to your question, I'm finding something on Iberia:
OUTBOUND - Saturday, Jun 27, 2015
Iberia
IB6166
5:40 PM BOS Boston Logan International Departure 6h 50m
6:30 AM (+1) MAD Madrid Destination
Connect in airport
Connection 0h 55m
Iberia
IB3918
Operated by Iberia Express
7:25 AM MAD Madrid Departure 1h 20m
8:45 AM PMI Palma - Majorca Destination
Arrives: Sunday, Jun 28, 2015 Journey duration: 9h 05m
It's a bit of a tight connection, but both Skyscanner.com and Momondo.com are showing it. Skyscanner says you can book it on the following sites for the following fares:
BookAirFare $596.38
Hop2 $601.32
exploretrip $606.55
Momondo says you can book it here for these prices:
smartfares
584Per person
584 USDTotal
Bookairfare
596Per person
596 USDTotal
Faregeek
596Per person
596 USDTotal
Hop2
601Per person
601 USDTotal
Go to booking
PaylessFlights
691Per person
691 USD
That also seems to be possible on the 28th or the 29th, again from the same vendors.
As for UA miles, I just had a look at United.com and it's not looking very good. The only saver flights I can find are in business class for 70,000 miles. That's on the 29th; they're not showing any availability on the 27th or the 28th at all, although you might give them a call to see whether there's something they can do that doesn't show up on the site. That can be useful with mileage redemption.
Best of luck, and let me know how it goes. I'd love to hear about your trip afterwards!
(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-22 09:22 pm (UTC)I've found that UA sometimes doesn't open up award tickets until closer to the departure date, which is why I might wait until closer to June if I'm feeling in a risk accepting mindset.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-22 10:32 pm (UTC)I'm seeing that Aer Lingus flight on the 27th as the best, but it seems to be available for something less than what you found:
OUTBOUND - Saturday, Jun 27, 2015
Aer Lingus
EI739
10:50 PM PMI Palma - Majorca Departure 2h 50m
12:40 AM (+1) DUB Dublin Destination
Connect in airport
Long wait Connection 11h 10m
Aer Lingus
EI137
11:50 AM DUB Dublin Departure 6h 55m
1:45 PM BOS Boston Logan International Destination
Arrives: Sunday, Jun 28, 2015 Journey duration: 20h 55m
Travel2Be $766.68
vayama $775.65
Expedia $775.70
Priceline $775.70
Orbitz $775.70
Cheaptickets $775.70
Travel Merry $780.70
eDreams $783.72
Hop2 $791.65
Tripsta $805.66
Flyfar $817.17
FlightNetwork $817.17
Bravofly $913.18
The other thing you can try if you haven't already bought your SFO-CPH ticket is to try buying them together with the PMI-BOS one. It can sometimes be cheaper to have a double open-jaw round-trip than two unconnected one-ways. Worth a try, at least.
Waiting for UA award seats to open up can also work but I'd guess it's a pretty high risk for a summer transatlantic route. That said, if you have elite status on United it might be a risk worth taking.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-23 01:21 am (UTC)Good to know about the double open jaw. Unfortunately I already booked SFO-CPH (Norwegian Air ~$450) but I'll have to keep that in mind for the next time I decide to do something crazy like this again. Though... I *do* need to go from BOS to SFO sometime after July 4. Do you think I can do anything with that?
(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-23 04:10 am (UTC)Two of the fare comparison sites I like are Skyscanner and Momondo. I use them in conjunction with Kayak and Fly, among others, because they seem to use a different engine from Google. One caveat is that they sometimes err on the side of optimism--in that sometimes, their fares don't exist once you get to the booking site--but that can also happen with Google. The other occasional issue is that they both tend to be willing to offer what I consider risky combinations: either the end-on-end connections with two low-fare airlines, or by suggesting ticket consolidators with somewhat dodgy reputations. It's worth checking the reputation of a travel site if you've never heard of it before.
In the list I gave you the cheapest site (Travel2Be) is one I have no experience with. That doesn't mean it's bad, but it does mean I can't tell you if it's any good. I have bought tickets from vayama (whose policies seem a bit more restrictive sometimes) and of course from Expedia. So you should be able to get that $775.70 fare if it hasn't evaporated since this morning.
I *do* need to go from BOS to SFO sometime after July 4. Do you think I can do anything with that?
Definitely worth a try. It's a very open jaw, but that doesn't mean it might not work. I'm seeing $1007 for a combination of the above Aer Lingus connection PMI-DUB-BOS and Virgin America BOS-SFO for either Monday, 6 July or Tuesday, 7 July, but that may simply be adding the $775.70 to whatever the Virgin America one-way fare is, meaning there's no advantage to booking them together.
I would check prices for both legs together and separately and see what results you get.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-17 02:11 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-17 04:19 pm (UTC)Yeah, RyanAir, along with Spirit, is one of those carriers I refuse to use, because of their habit of nickel-and-diming their customers. Lest anyone forget, these were the guys who seriously proposed outfitting their aircraft with pay toilets.
Given that the Euro is tanking vs. the USD, if we do indeed end up with a fare war, it might be a good time to take advantage of low fares and a favorable exchange rate to take a trip to Europe.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-18 02:55 am (UTC)I find there are actually some times when Ryanair is the right answer. For me they're unlike Spirit, where there's just too much competition on routes for me to even consider flying them. It probably helps in my case that their destinations outside the United States are in Latin America and the Caribbean. In a contest between Spirit and Avianca, Copa, and LAN, I choose the Latin Americans every time. The deals are often better even on the best Latin American carriers and the service is in a completely different league. And I just never consider them within the United States because I've never been in a market they serve at all well.
Lest anyone forget, these were the guys who seriously proposed outfitting their aircraft with pay toilets.
Michael O'Leary did later claim he was only joking. Fortunately, European airline regulators never would have let him get away with pay toilets.
Possibly the worst thing about Ryanair and Spirit is the apparent contempt in which the CEOs (Michael O'Leary and Ben Baldanza, respectively) hold their customers.
Given that the Euro is tanking vs. the USD, if we do indeed end up with a fare war, it might be a good time to take advantage of low fares and a favorable exchange rate to take a trip to Europe.
We'll have to see how it goes. Ryanair appears to be in negotiations to buy long-haul aircraft, which is a process that has a long lead-time. By the time they actually start flying the exchange rates may well have shifted again. But it's worth watching. They could also lease, which might move the schedule up.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-18 04:19 pm (UTC)Spirit in general seems to cater to budget-minded "sun-n-fun" travelers. I'm almost picturing an airplane full of drunken frat children on the way to vacation in Florida or Jamaica for spring break.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-19 01:52 pm (UTC)Yeah, this is pretty much true. On the other hand, Boston doesn't get that much service from Spirit either, particularly if you want to avoid connecting using them.
Spirit in general seems to cater to budget-minded "sun-n-fun" travelers. I'm almost picturing an airplane full of drunken frat children on the way to vacation in Florida or Jamaica for spring break.
Their website design really makes it look that way! That phonebook yellow has got to go.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-19 03:58 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-18 02:39 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-17 02:43 pm (UTC)Fort Lauderdale isn't too bad. There's a free bus that connects to the TriMet station which gets you to Miami quite conveniently.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-18 02:58 am (UTC)Thanks!
Fort Lauderdale isn't too bad. There's a free bus that connects to the TriMet station which gets you to Miami quite conveniently.
True! I didn't mean to put down FLL, but it seemed like a good example of an airport that wasn't as close to its city as the primary one. That it has a good transit connection makes it better than many of Ryanair's favorite airports.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-17 02:52 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-18 03:16 am (UTC)Beauvais-Tillé is really kind of a joke. I looked at Ryanair's itineraries between Dublin and Beauvais and simply couldn't come up with a good reason to put myself through that when Aer Lingus didn't cost appreciably more after fees and flew me to an actual Paris airport as well.
(Don't even get me started about Châlons Vatry Airport. It's almost as far from Paris as Bradley is from Boston, but Ryanair calls it "Paris Vatry".)
Also in this absurd category is calling Girona and Reus "Barcelona" airports.
Edited to fix boldface.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-17 03:16 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-17 05:32 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-18 03:24 am (UTC)Another way to compare is to look at other, longer routes which cost the same. Flights to Istanbul (from the North American East Coast) are often competitive with ones to London, yet it's just about half again as long a flight. And there are times when crossing the Pacific doesn't cost much more than crossing the Atlantic.
If there are capacity problems, I think it's more because the existing airlines are camping out on the landing slots at gateway airports than it is the North Atlantic track system.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-17 05:02 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-18 03:33 am (UTC)Ryanair charges €15 or £15 for this. Spirit only charges $10!
It's a business model, I guess. But I don't like it.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-18 01:39 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-18 03:50 am (UTC)But I have fond memories of PEOPLExpress's transatlantic service. You got in line and waited to board, just like at a bus station. Then, after you boarded, flight attendants took your credit card imprint to pay for your flight ticket right on the plane!
You could never do this now. Security wants to know if you're on the no-fly list before you even get close to a plane.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-19 02:33 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-19 01:55 pm (UTC)Norwegian thought they had the route network in Europe to fight a price war but they evidently are having some financial problems now. Overambition, perhaps.
It'll be interesting to see what happens.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-19 03:39 am (UTC)(it seems on point in any event)
(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-19 01:56 pm (UTC)I think bedfull_o_books will appreciate it, too. :)
(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-20 04:01 am (UTC)http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31975456
"Ryanair abandons plans to operate transatlantic flights"
(no subject)
Date: 2015-03-20 08:08 am (UTC)It's not working out very well for Norwegian right now, which the story mentions. Perhaps that's part of it.