Followup to our road trip conversation Sunday night:

[randomness]

lisa_bee, holmes_iv: maybe this might address why certain men don't actually interact with women as if they were people?

I didn't figure this out until I read Robert Bly's book Iron John (this was when that short-lived "men's movement" thing was starting up). I had read a lot of Bly's poetry as an undergraduate, so I read this book too. A lot of it seemed pretty silly to me, but there was one passage that struck me like a hammer to the forehead. What it said was, the Woman With the Golden Hair does not exist. What Bly meant by that was, a lot of men are looking for their anima -- the term Jung gave to the feminine side of a man's personality. But what a lot of men in a patriarchal culture do not understand is that the anima is part of them, and is not to be found in another person. This is because men in a patriarchal culture are taught precisely that they don't have an anima: that there is nothing feminine about them, or if there is, that it is a bad thing and must be suppressed. Unfortunately, what this means is that a lot of guys who are a bit of a mess (and who isn't, really?) tend to project their anima onto the women they see around them.

The reason that this hit me was that I suddenly realized what I was doing wrong: I wasn't reacting to women as if they were real people. Instead, I was reacting to them as if they were the missing part of myself.

Yes, yes, I know. It should have been bloody obvious, right? Well, it wasn't, at least not until then. And that, oddly enough, is one thing about patriarchy. It's a system of thought so ubiquitous you don't always realize you're in it. Even when you've been raised by a couple of strong and smart women, it still shapes your thinking and behavior.

(from http://thevanitypress.blogspot.com/2007/06/confessions-of-former-nice-guy.html. Thanks to cmeckhardt for the timely pointer!)

Comments

[signsoflife.livejournal.com]

Dude, spot on.

[karakara98.livejournal.com]

I don't think you need to be a man, or even subject to the patriarchy to fall victim to that fallacy. What I'm saying is that, as a woman, I've felt that way myself about people. One could just as easily say this is a product of the extreme individualism of our current culture.

Thanks for posting a provocative post!

[r-ness.livejournal.com]

You don't, but it helps, because men really are taught to "be a man" and reject aspects of themselves which are seen as traditionally feminine. So while it's certainly possible to have a corresponding "I must find the person who completes me" behavior, the particular way in which men look for those characteristics in women--nurturance, tenderness, empathy--which are traditionally seen as feminine, follows from the gendered way in which these characteristics are often portrayed and depicted.

Thanks for posting a provocative post!

Provocative posts our specialty! :)

Also...

[r-ness.livejournal.com]

...I totally owe you a reply, and at this point, an apology for the delay.

A while ago you commented saying you'd like to meet up for lunch; I'd love to do that sometime, and I'm sorry it's taken so long to get back to you!

Re: Also...

[karakara98.livejournal.com]

No worries! Life is busy, and things get nuts. If all else fails, perhaps I'll see you at the reunion?

[stolen-tea.livejournal.com]

That sounds similar to something I dislike in the dating scene I'm in; there's a tendency to approach dating as "I have a open niche in my life, and I want to find someone to fill it", rather than allowing up front for the possibility of relationships changing the people involved, which to me is actually a mark of a healthy relationship. Maybe I'm just too idealistic, maybe Seattlites really are more likely to become wrapped up in their own lives (one of my hypotheses about the so-called "Seattle Freeze"), or maybe everyone else is just far better than I at predicting in advance how much time they'll want to devote to someone or how well they'll cope with change. *shrug*

At the moment, it seems somewhat inhumane and formalistic to me.

[xse99.livejournal.com]

I've actually read of this fallacy as a near-universal and non-gender-specific phenomenon--we're all looking for our other half (one's other half could conceivably be the same gender). It's happened to me.

[r-ness.livejournal.com]

I do think that particular idea ("we're all looking for our other half") is pernicious and misleading. I thought that for a while. It was very unhealthy.

Gender is an issue here, nonetheless.

[jelazakazone.livejournal.com]

I surfed over from lillibet's LJ and found this post very interesting. I've linked to it from a locked/filtered post on my LJ and just wanted to let you know. Thanks for posting and not being friend's only:) (I realize that it may seem hypocritical that I've posted my entry as a locked entry, but I recently decided to ask my flist if they would feel more comfortable having conversations about relationships and gender and sexuality if the posts were locked and the majority said yes.)

[r-ness.livejournal.com]

Thanks for posting and not being friend's only:) (I realize that it may seem hypocritical that I've posted my entry as a locked entry, but I recently decided to ask my flist if they would feel more comfortable having conversations about relationships and gender and sexuality if the posts were locked and the majority said yes.)

You're welcome! I've thought carefully about what I want to be able to say in public. Relationships, gender and sexuality are subjects that I feel I want to discuss "out loud". There are consequences to discussing these things in public, but some of them--like your surfing over to my journal--are good ones.

I must admit I'm now curious to see what your entry says, but I understand if you're not able to show me.

[jelazakazone.livejournal.com]

My post didn't have any new thoughts and only one person commented (to which I replied twice), so there are really only two comments:)

I could ask the person who commented if I could quote him, if you like. Do you have an email I could send the comment to? I thought he had some interesting insights about how this is not only men who do this and furthermore, it's not limited to issues of gender/sexuality, but that we do it across all kinds of lines.

I am pretty much an open book myself. I rarely lock posts, but I am interested in having ongoing conversations with people through LJ about gender, sexuality, and relationships (marriage and long term commitments specifically) and my flist spoke when I asked them if they would like me to lock those posts.

I don't go to great lengths to hide who I am, but I try to keep the online stuff separate. I have two kids and sometimes I get paranoid. I live in fear that CPS will come knocking on my door some day.

At the moment, being in a conventional looking marriage, I don't really have access to people wanting to discuss gender/sexuality issues. LJ is the only place I have access to people who are interested (or maybe they are just less tired than the rest of my friends, most of whom have small kids:)). So, while I'd like to be able to be completely free to discuss this stuff "out loud", I also feel a bit careful about doing so and I want to respect the people I've built i-relationships with as well:)

Perhaps I have gone beyond your request and have now squelched any further questions you might have wanted to ask me:) (I tend to blab a bit:)).

[r-ness.livejournal.com]

Do you have an email I could send the comment to?

Sure. My account is a paid account, so my username at livejournal works fine.

I rarely lock posts, but I am interested in having ongoing conversations with people through LJ about gender, sexuality, and relationships (marriage and long term commitments specifically) and my flist spoke when I asked them if they would like me to lock those posts.

Sure. If you've had a look at my LJ, you'll have noticed how much I like talking about those subjects myself. :)
I'm lucky to have enough people on my friends list who are willing to respond to me, apparently without regard to whether the post is locked or not. I'm really glad of that.

Perhaps I have gone beyond your request and have now squelched any further questions you might have wanted to ask me:) (I tend to blab a bit:)).

Don't worry, there's not much chance of that. I'm known for being a bit chatty myself. :)

Nice to "meet" you, btw!

(I just had a look at my LJ posts to see if any of the posts on this subject were locked; the first one I see that was locked was back on March 7th, and I have no idea why I friends-locked it. I've unlocked it.)