Assembled in the USA from 100% Chinese parts.

Yeah. I think that's another aspect of the same point, maybe? There are fewer which impact me directly because they're less visible/onerous to me?

Something like that.

(BTW, you called last night? We called back...tag! you're it! :) )

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dpolicar

Heh. I actually was calling back... but I guess I'm still it.

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ketzl.livejournal.com

Hm. Agreed about the fucked-up mainstream assumptions.

WRT race, obviously I'm white & while I'm Jewish I'm blonde and can easily pass for a shiksa.... But still I felt alienated from the mainsteam from the moment I stepped into kindergarten. Geek from birth, I guess :)

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I'm blonde and can easily pass

Sure, and I think that's the essential point.

But still I felt alienated from the mainsteam

While you felt alienated, it was clear from the way I was treated by others that I was the alien. Alienation from within as opposed to alienation from without.

Does that make sense?

(I'm not trying either to devalue your experience or value mine over yours; I'm observing the difference.)

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sweetmmeblue.livejournal.com

This was me too. The way I was treated by others always made sure that I understood that I was not one of them even when I tried. Then I went to my first SciFi con and suddenly things started to get better. There are still individuals within the group that I do not click with but that's the norm, however overall I feel more at peace here than trying to function in the mundane world.

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Yah, I admit that I had nowhere near as much self-awareness on this subject at the time, but I think a group which assumed that there was something different about me just from external appearance was never going to fly with me, and finding a group where my differences were considered minor by comparison, and thus lost in the noise as it were, made it easier for me to function.

And, having some small amount of social intuition, even at the time, meant that I gravitated that way.

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See, you looked different . . . so did I, in a way. Once we'd moved I was no longer popular, and looking back on it I see that nobody that moved to town after I did was really very accepted (except among the druggie crowds). And I was fat, therefore looked different.

I guess I don't quite understand feeling alienated vs. being alienated from without. Just having them look at you and know? Most groups (say adults) didn't recognize anything different about me except being fat, but the important ones (school) did.

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ketzl.livejournal.com

Clear from the way I was treated, too :) But how they singled ME out, I don't know, since I did look like them. Of course your experience was different. In one sense you might have had it easier; you got a really obvious reason why you were treated different, but I was left with a hollow sense that something about me was strange and immediately apparent to "normal" people, only it was invisible to me so not only couldn't I do anything about it, I didn't even know what it was. Some days I have to go bar-hopping with work associates and the feeling comes back to me strong. Bar-hopping, yuck!

Yeah-- not trying to devalue or judge, just discuss.

At one of G's classes last weekend, a dyke commented that she'd just realized something. Gay or lesbian leatherpeople have it hard in a lot of ways but easy in that they're already out of the mainstream so that they can do their own thing, whatever that might be. Straight/bi kinky folk can pass, she said, but the possibility of conforming makes it harder to forge our own path. For better or worse.

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clauclauclaudia

How they singled ME out, I don't know, since I did look like them.

Yeah, this is my experience too. Really, I think I got in a vicious cycle of social awkwardness + stubbornness = emphasizing my own geekery. "Oh yeah? Well if that's how obnoxious you're going to be because I don't conform, I'm not going to even *try* to fit your standards. So there." Iterated through middle and high school. ;-)

But, I mean, finding social circles and communities that *did* accept me, in college and afterwards, didn't make me any likelier to try to fit in to ther circles. It just confirmed me in my stubbornness or something.

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quietann.livejournal.com

I'm another one who can "pass" at least for a while. A lot of my problems in grad school and in my first post-PhD job (assistant professor) came up because over any period of time, I can't hide that I'm "weird." Moving in the direction of tech (I am a biostatistician) was a good choice, because it's a geeky enough profession that people expect me to be a bit strange. By the terms of my current crowd, which is essentially the same as

r_ness's I am probably a bit too "normal."

But in elementary school, yes, I got picked on. Some of it was my own social and emotional immaturity, and being small and clumsy, combined with a scary intellect. I don't have Aspergers, but as a kid I had a certain rigidity in how I'd play and with whom. Or I'd get really obsessed with something (horses!) and not want to do/talk about anything else. Middle school was hell, but for high school I went to a math/science/computers magnet, which was *much* easier.

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By the terms of my current crowd, which is essentially the same as r_ness's

While we do have a lot of overlap in one crowd, I think a number of crowds that I'm in have significant differences in assumptions.

(Just an observation; not meant to refute anything you're saying.)

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you got a really obvious reason why you were treated different

Yes, and it's true that it was obvious, but not for the reason you think.

In my case it was explicitly stated. People said it to my face; you are not like us because of this part of your appearance.

I was left with a hollow sense that something about me was strange and immediately apparent to "normal" people, only it was invisible to me so not only couldn't I do anything about it, I didn't even know what it was.

And as you say, it was easier, because I didn't have to wonder about it. Now, they may not have been exactly correct about the reason, because it isn't just about appearance; there are a whole complex of socially constructed values around that difference, but as a first approximation it certainly was helpful to my understanding that I had that obvious reason to hang the construct from.

Moreover, it wasn't anything I could change, so the idea of attempting to "pass" wasn't even an option, so I think that helped me come to the conclusion that the right way was out, rather than attempting to ingratiate myself.

Some days I have to go bar-hopping with work associates and the feeling comes back to me strong. Bar-hopping, yuck!

See, I actually rather like bar-hopping with the right crowd. The activity itself can be fun. It's the "work associates" part that can be problematic. And that goes back to the shared assumptions that your work associates may have, which may not be the ones you hold.

the possibility of conforming makes it harder to forge our own path.

Yeah, it can be a trap to attempt to pass. Conforming is sometimes a form of complicity. Of course, one can't always be a rebel, but conforming isn't always seen as a choice one makes, which it definitely is.

(I have a post that's been on the stack for a while about the intersection of kink and feminism, and the issues around being a straight male top. It's still inchoate, though.)

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redbird

Yes. I can pass, for a while, or in casual contexts. Especially here in New York, where even if I looked more stereotypically Jewish, that wouldn't be distinctive. Someone who just sees me with

cattitude, like most of our neighbors, will read us as a heterosexual, presumably monogamous, settled couple.

That doesn't mean no sense of alienation, but a different sort, in a number of ways. (Even when I was very much on the outside, in grade school, nobody ever told me why. I'm not sure they could have identified it.)

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agrimony.livejournal.com

My experience as a wee tot was similar to ketzl's.

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klingonlandlady.livejournal.com

Yep, same here. one of the values of the mainstream really is that the default, the normative if you will, is of a heterosexual white male.

Being a girl was not mainstream, being Too Smart especially wasn't (thank you, public school)... and liking non-girl activities was not cool. And I'd traveled a lot and didn't have an American upbringing per se. I spoke like an adult. There was no way i could fake fitting in.

It was interesting living in japan and being a "visible minority" though, where people can tell at a distance... an educational experience. In the US there is a certain amount of safety in "at least I'm white", especially if you dress well. People treat you better.

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dianec42.livejournal.com

Why did you abandon the mainstream?

For me, that's not even a valid question. I never managed to get into it in the first place...

Anyway, what has the mainstream done for me lately?

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drwex

Your friends who "consciously chose the subculture" have rationalized their upbringing to make it more padded and comfy. We didn't have that much choice, though for a wide variety of different reasons.

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Being what I assume is a "mainstreamer" here- there's another point of view that may not be taken into account-
Those in mainstream culture often at times don't actually feel the acceptance you're describing. I mean predjudice is predjudice... which is horrid and a whole nother matter in itself and perhaps I'm not completely understanding the term "mainstream" here. I'm ging to assume you are speaking of the dating world and how people choose what kind of relationships to be in-
very very bad analogy coming here-
Flock of sheep. If you look like the other (similar dress and lifestyle) sheep, smell like the other sheep, do the same things the other sheep do and are generally no different than any of them and don't stand out from the crowd... does that mean you're accepted? If one is lonely and thinks differently yet blends in (and is accepted as mainstream) does that make that person part of the whole?

Perhaps you're talking not about relationships and more about recreational activites or the issues of predjudice in our society.... in which case I'm blathering.
But I've found more and more that the "mainstream" seems to be breaking up a bit. Of all the people I've known only 2 have married and gone for the "traditional picket fence" lifestyle. You can marry anyone of any sex in MA... that's a huge difference in social norms sicne I was a kid at least... an a good one at that.
Not of offend anyone with any of this commentary- it's just random thoughts from another open minded individual with maybe a different perspective.

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Oh... and one other thought-
no matter what social niche you find yourself in... I find it both interesting and comforting that it's nothing new. Societies have had all kinds of social cliches for eons. Perhaps it's human nature to separate individuals into smaller groups based on similarities, likes, dislikes and belief systems. It could possibly be a way to create family structures as adults once we've grown and left those of childhood... or if you want to read even more into it- to find the family structures that were never there as children. Wow... hmm... I could keep going with this but I best stop. This is your post after all.
We should chat tho. This is really a deep topic to ponder.
:)

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I'm not sure that I find it comforting that ostracization is age-old, and in fact predates humanity.

I recognize it has a social function, and it's certainly interesting, but I'm not comforted by it.

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perhaps I'm not completely understanding the term "mainstream" here.

I think we're talking about two different things, here.

There were mainstream assumptions that didn't work for me--one of them was lack of acceptance of who I was, for example--and so I found those assumptions a barrier to entry to the mainstream. I didn't want to be part of a group which wanted to define me in a way I wasn't.

If you look like the other (similar dress and lifestyle) sheep, smell like the other sheep, do the same things the other sheep do and are generally no different than any of them and don't stand out from the crowd... does that mean you're accepted? If one is lonely and thinks differently yet blends in (and is accepted as mainstream) does that make that person part of the whole?

You're talking about passing for mainstream. If their assumptions aren't working, why stay? Why look like them, smell like them, do the same things they do, if it makes one lonely and one thinks differently.

Does that make sense? I think you're talking about people who appear to be mainstream by outward appearance; I'm talking about rejecting the mainstream world-view.

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*nod* makes much more sense- yes... and I suppose in many ways I oversimplified myself... I think in many ways to understand what your getting at is to understand your definition of 'mainstream views'- because to me at least it was outward appearance (basically a suburban wonderbread atomaton) as well as certain expectations (the education, the 9-5 job, the house the kids the marriage etc..). And perhaps "comfort" was the wrong word, more that social structures rise and fall all throughout history and nothing is perminant, there's always room for improvement, so if it sucks people will change it somehow. But it's pretty cool that in a few generations time we've changed the face of what it is to be 'mainstream'... slowly and imperfectly... one example-
my mum's generation... job prospects? teacher, nurse, dental assistant.... now? phhbt. women can be a CEO, lawyer, doctor, astronaut. Not perfect, but it's a start.
my mum's generation.... to be gay, good luck. now? marriage is legal and you can walk down the street holding hands/kissing etc. No, not nearly perfect yet... but it's a start. Elvis's pelvis was EVIL... now? we can be naked ona billboard or take nude yoga classes on rooftops across manhattan...

mainstream view is changing. My question/thought is... what does it matter if you fit into it if it's changing and perhaps in a few decades going to become something else that may allow for all of your differences... or at least some of them.
Why stay?
Well that's just it... I think people aren't.

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dirque.livejournal.com

Wow, your post confuses the crap out of me.

I consider our backgrounds to be vaguely similar. I don't really consider myself out of the mainstream though I do have a vague contempt for it. Though in the end, I figure if you have enough self-esteem you don't ever let other people -including those in your social group- do your thinking for you you'll always do fine.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say race and upbringing allows me to get into MORE diverse social situations and to be at least superficially accepted and explore so many things than being say a WASP would ever have. My alienness gives me an instant pass in not knowing the subtleties while being asian is not as bad as being black, white or jewish depending on the racist subculture.

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Wow, your post confuses the crap out of me.

Evidently so! :)

I consider our backgrounds to be vaguely similar.

They weren't, really. I mean, you grew up on the N train, which is miles apart from being from a backwater suburb past the end of Metro-North.

Though in the end, I figure if you have enough self-esteem you don't ever let other people -including those in your social group- do your thinking for you you'll always do fine.

So I think I can see where the confusion lies.

I didn't want to be defined by the assumptions of the mainstream, because they wanted to define who I was. And a significant part of that was their assumptions of who I was based on my race: I was, as you say, alien.

And to me, gee, I'm just me. I don't think I want to be defined as alien.

My alienness gives me an instant pass in not knowing the subtleties while being asian is not as bad as being black, white or jewish depending on the racist subculture.

So, what you're saying is that the box the mainstream puts you in is a better box than the one they put some other people in. That's nice, but I want more opportunity to define my own box than the mainstream allowed me to have.

Does that make sense? Or can I clarify further?

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dirque.livejournal.com

Actually you'd be surprised. A lot of the Chinese migration came much later. My parents were from the Manhatten non-Chinatown restaurant social group of the early 70's and they knew everyone by name. Up to high school I was the only Chinese in my class. All my friends were basically Italian. But i accept that growing up at the end of the metroNorth line is much different than growing up at the end of the N line.

But actually my point is that I exploit the shit out of the assumptions other people have of me. I adore the alieness. I mean if you looked mainstream people would assume you're just like them, no? And that to me is a much worse strait jacket than someone who is superficially different- non offensive - but mostly like them. There's more leeway when you break the mold.

It especially cracks me up when someone uses me as an example of how cosmopolitan they are because I'm their Chinese friend. And like you I have sooo many different crowds I can run with. In a way I'm their excuse to not run with people just like them as they are my gateway to a specific subgroup.

And all I can say is thank goodness you're not mainstream. Thank goodness you're different and don't fit into a specific subculture. I'm better off for it. because I use you and will continue to use you to pump you for information, experiences, and anecdotes for things I don't have the time or ability to experience for myself. You're my gateway into dozen of social groups and subcultures and I humbly offer to be your gateway into mine.

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I think we too, are speaking across each other. (I think there's a lot of it because I was thinking aloud and setting down a placeholder, so it's my fault, but I honestly didn't think there'd be any comment!)

the mainstream isn't nerely so cohesive as all that.

Sure, sure. I oversimplify. On the other hand, we both recognize that a mainstream does exist, and does have some characteristics we can both agree on.

And plenty of people assumed to be Of It, loathe it and fall through all manner of cracks by being assumed to be just a part of the herd.

As I said to

evilbunnymayhem, we're getting at two different things here, which I think addresses your point about victimization. If they loathe it, it's probably time for them to decide they don't want to be part of the herd.

I figure if you have enough self-esteem you don't ever let other people -including those in your social group- do your thinking for you

So I didn't. That meant exiting the social group which was trying to do my thinking for me, and entering a different one which--while I will admit has its own group-think issues--didn't try to do the same kind of thinking for me.

Finally, "other"ness is always a matter of choice.

I actually disagree here. I was talking at lunch with a social worker friend today. She mentioned that one of the differences between the psychological and social work approaches is that social work looks at people in their social context, as opposed to looking at their problems as an individual. "No man is an island," she said, and social work seeks to look at people and their problems in their context.

"other"ness is embedded in a social context. If your social context holds the value, "You are the other because of this and such", you can either agree with them or disagree with them, but their holding that value predates you. (You may also be able to change their value later, but the important thing is that it was there before you came along.)

Plenty of Asians are mainstream.

This is an interesting statement, and one which I think perhaps isn't as true as you think. Sure, plenty of Asians have chosen to internalize the values of the mainstream, but one of the values of the mainstream really is that the default, the normative if you will, is of a heterosexual white male. It's less true than it used to be, but it's still true.

Are those the values you want to live by?

No, and the original placeholder post was my thinking aloud about how I had come to reject those values, many of which were the ones shared by the mainstream.

Too often we (and by we I mean Geeks) play the victim and let others define who we are going to be and how we are going to live. Don't be a victim.

Which, in fact, is exactly what I decided not to be, because choosing the values of a group which devalued me was making myself a victim. So my ending up in a group which didn't devalue me was an act of empowerment.

I'm hearing an implicit assumption in that Geek/mainstream dichotomy you draw which makes it seem like those who have entered the Geek world have been victimized by the mainstream. Clearly, some people have, but I don't think it's necessarily true that the values of that particular subculture--which isn't exactly the one I identify with--are necessarily inferior to those of the mainstream. They just are.

Does that make sense?

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"They just are."

Clarification: i.e., they're just what they are. Inferior or superior worth imputed to them is socially constructed, so Geek values aren't necessarily less or more worthwhile than mainstream ones, despite what either group likes to think.

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stolen-tea.livejournal.com

Hm. Would you say that, if you were to be a part of any culture, you'd have to integrate into it, and so you picked the one you liked best at the time?

For myself, I've been blessed with the ability to blend with high stratas of mainstream culture, and I've usually tried to maintain that ability because it's very useful, even if I don't particularly identify with mainstream culture. (The hair is the only sticking point, and even that's more acceptable nowadays.) It's sort of the equivalent of heterosexual privilege when it comes to bisexuals, really. :/

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Would you say that, if you were to be a part of any culture, you'd have to integrate into it

Not exactly. I think if I were to be part of a culture I'd have to share its world-view.

For myself, I've been blessed with the ability to blend with high stratas of mainstream culture, and I've usually tried to maintain that ability because it's very useful, even if I don't particularly identify with mainstream culture.

Yeah, I think I addressed this point above; I'm not talking about blending in, I'm actually talking about identifying with its world-view.

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And who's to say if someone does something mainstream that they're "following" it? Why can't I do something mainstream (say, like I just did, by getting married to a man) because I made a conscious decision?

See for me, the mainstream never carried me along. Sometimes I do things that fall within the mainstream, sometimes without. But I do them because I want to or because I consciously think about them, not because I am within or without the mainstream. The mainstream has nothing to do with my decisions.

Folks I know have a hard time, say, putting up a Christmas tree because it's so mainstream. Dude, do what you want! screw whether other people do it or not! You want to be a follower of Darwin Ortiz, go ahead. Don't do it because of or in spite of the mainstream. Do it because you want to.

So, um, yeah.

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it's not that they're poseurs. It's that they felt oppressed for so long by those things, because it symbolized everything about "The mainstream" that they didn't like -- not having the right look or attitude or heritage or money or class to fit into the mainstream.

Not fitting into the mainstream is hell at first, but freeing later on because you see that you have other choices besides the mainstream. But it's still hell, because everything (or most things) mainstream are felt to be oppressive. The forest is oppressive therefore each individual tree is oppressive.

But yeah, doing that *is* giving power to it.

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Mainstream = "what everyone does". Voting for Bush is mainstream. Reading Harry Potter is mainstream. Getting married, buying a car, buying a house, having 2.5 kids is mainstream. Reading Neil Gaiman is mainstream. Homophobia is kind of mainstream though acceptance is becoming more mainstream.

Livejournal is mainstream. Wikipedia is mainstream.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstream

Memes are mainstream, by definition. Popular sayings and viral funny things are mainstream. Badger/Mushroom, Lolcats and All Your Base are mainstream.

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klingonlandlady.livejournal.com

Another definition, by example maybe?
It's the assumptions that people make that don't apply to me... mainstream is when people assume I'm Christian, or changed my name when I got married, or that I'm heterosexual, or that everyone has or wants to have children.

"It's Christmas so EVERYone goes to the MALL and buys toys for their CHILDREN" ..um, no, sorry, that experience is not universal. Mainstream is the luxury of assuming your experience is the universal or normal one. Find yourself on the outside of enough of those and you start to notice it.

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